Leoht - Project cancellation, dispute and refunds

[antispam246]

If you backed this project and are going through to motions most other backers are in regards to complete lack of information and very poor service and feedback, then please feel free to post the following on the Leoht comments section.

I was a backer at the top tier.
I too felt what occurred was very poorly handled from Leohts side.

I HAVE received my refund in full. I am now no longer a backer and can not comment or follow up on the kickstarter Leoht page. I tried to pass this information on via their facebook and it was removed.

I pledged $525 for top tier reward I was refunded this amount in fill minus exchange rate difference on the 28th December. I can still see the comments and noticed many people have had nothing refunded still and no follow up. My backer number was 499 and as it's been pointed out this is seemingly irrelevant when it comes to refund. I didn't do anything different to anyone else, I complained, in a fair and direct manner both through comments and messages (no immediate replies).

When they originally broke the news that the project would not be going forward and informed us all of the issues they had (and had known about 3 months in), nearly a year later my first and only derogatory comment was as follows;

Absolutely gutted that it's come to this, was really hopeful for this product, even with the court case ongoing. However, as other, I'm really annoyed, like Dave Kaiten said, you've really shot yourself in the foot with that latest update. I think with all the focus on the IP claim and then to go on and state that 3 months in you knew you had funding issues, even though your project was funded? That information should have been relayed to your backers immediately, further more and more importantly, as already stated that's a big no no with kickstarter. If your project is funded, you're setting that bar at the costs you need to fund the project, not a fraction in the hopes someone somewhere else will pick it up. You've literally stated that you've deceived us. My biggest worry is sadly now for yourselves as a company. Everything you've said in that latest update is only going to incite alot of anger and alot of attempted chargebacks. No one is going to wait for a "partial refund" you've given everyone genuine reason to chargeback and most likely with success, which means you've potentially bankrupted yourselves when considering kickstarter fees. As far as I'm aware the chargebacks would come from your separate kickstarter account that kickstarter themselves take their fees from. In essence, kickstarter aren't liable nor accountable and have made certain they won't lose out but you will. I can only suggest that you are more forthcoming and very very clear on how you plan to refund people, in detail and most importantly, better do it quick because no one is going to wait. Not even me. Sad to say

Might seem harsh but considering the overall circumstances, I deemed this very fair and just. There were comments that were alot harsher. I did not attack them personally or resort to childish outbursts.

On the 24th December after not seeing anything to the effect of what was promised in refunds, I posted the following,

No refund here and I still have my original card. No reply to messages. If there's no update or no full refund by tomorrow then I'll go through my credit card company. I think we've waited long enough.

As stated earlier, I eventually received a refund in full 28th December.

Why am I pointing this all out? Two main reasons really, one the obvious unequal treatment of all backers and complete lack of information from Leoht and secondly the treatment they eventually gave me after never responding to their backers or my queries and then the obvious attempt to prevent me from communicating any of this to my fellow backers.

For any non-backers interested, here is a brief'ish summary of events;

March 2015 - Leoht kickstarter begins
April 2015 - Successfully funded, they raised around $160,000 having set the goal at $100,000
July 2015 - 12 updates were posted between march and July, always indicating everything was moving in the right direction with no issues, thats 5 months in with everything moving ahead and looking good.
August 2015 - First notification of an IP claim/dispute against Leoht and Ralph Lauren, this actually came from a backer posted on the comments as the claim was publicly available and posted by several media outlets.
August-October 2015 - We had 2 updates on the IP issue, although they were clear that there was little information to go off, they remained confident and stated they would be going ahead, in essence they didn't see this being an issue for their backers to concern themselves over. I personally remained confident with the IP issue and messaged them directly to enquire on the impact on the timeline if known;

In September I messaged them the following;
In response to the most recent update, unfortunately this has only just come to my attention. I understand that under the circumstances that there will most likely be no certain or clear answers, however, I will ask. Realistically, at this current point, assuming the production and sales go ahead, when can I expect the bag? With an original estimated delivery of October, what would I be looking at now. For me personally, this was intended as a birthday gift, albeit in september, as originally mentioned in our previous correspondence, I am one of the high tier backers with the limited edition tote. Any clarification or updates for me personally on this matter would be greatly appreciated. Basically need to know if I should start looking at other birthday gifts, I really hope not and remain optimistic and wish you all the best of luck with sorting this out.

Regards,

I received the following positive reply from Leoht

Thank you for reaching out to us directly. We really appreciate it.

Currently, the matter at hand is not effecting us. It is an allegation without merit and we have been advised to continuing developement. Prior to the announcement, we announced to backers that our original deliver date was being pushed back. (Mid July update) This remains the case, but not because of any additional events. (small guys in manufacturing simply takes a lot longer than expected).

We are so sadden to hear that we will miss your special occasions, but we assure you it's only because we want to ensure a great product that is worth your backing, our teams efforts, and worthy of your expectations. We have yet to announce a delivery date because elements of development continue to move. We only want to announce a date that we know we can commit to.

We appreciate you staying with us, supporting us, and your understanding during these odd times and standard development/production. Rest assure, we are still working forward to delivery your amazing product.

We will release information (that we can) as soon as we are allowed to.
We are very early in this process, and so there is nothing more to share with our supporters beyond 3 weeks ago.

Please feel free to contact us here again.

Thank you so much for your support.

Best,
The entire Leoht Team

Highlighted a few reoccurring responses that completely contradict how this ends up and essentially why their backers were, in majority, not amused.

So when I finally received my refund notification via email, it was coupled with the following response from Leoht directly to myself,

Dear , Thank you for showing your initial support for our Kickstarter campaign. In these last few days, we'd hope backers as yourself would continue to show your final support as you so vivaciously did in the beginning. We have no words for your final comments, as they strike us for your lack of confidence in, as you know as true, at the very least, a small group of people with a dream. Human beings at the other end of your spiteful remarks... or in your case, threats to further damage us. Simply know that we'd decided to refund backers in your tier, before your slander and threats, because we are good PEOPLE, understanding PEOPLE, and responsible PEOPLE. In the future, consider the effect that your unremovable words have on the world. Best of luck to you . We truly appreciated you.

Wasn't entirely sure how to take that eventually, bemused I guess. So my final response was (to which there has been no reply)

Firstly, thank you for the refund. Secondly, whether you bother to read this or not i'll never know but I feel I should reply to your e-mail message because quite frankly your comments are outrageous and only show it was worse than I imagined. My comments were on the fairer side, you've received alot harsher criticism from others and some of it is just. I supported you continuously up to a point but YOU let me down. Everything I said im my initial complaint was justified, you simply can not deny that, if the tone was found offensive then you need to put yourself in your customers shoes.

You violated kickstarters t&c's everyone has pointed this out. You lead us to believe there was no issues with your product, even with your court case and never ever mentioned at any point what you stated in your unbelievable last update, especially regarding the funding. I backed this project in March with an estimated delivery of October, you show me where not only inbetween that time frame or up and till your last update you were having issues with the product. You said in the first few months you already knew you had insufficient funds, you were obligated to inform your backers of this, if the gross miss-error of setting your "funding" known so early on, then it should have been stated along time ago.

To then go on and state we would receive partial refunds was only going ot incite anger, you're not stupid you should have known this.

My remarks were not spiteful, they were factual. You were funded to deliver a product and you failed to inform your funders of the gross errors and issues that you were aware of 3 months in, and we were only made aware of 10 months later!

I could go on and say alot more but to be honest I'm genuinely shocked by your stupidity. Everything you have personally stated to me in that last e-mail is contradicted not only by my own posts but your last update that started this. I suggest you re-read everything from a backers perspective. I understand that things can go wrong, yes that's fine, I remained optimisitc the whole time you were under going court precedings thinking this was your only dilemma, then you make "that" last update...

Seriously, ask yourself why so many, if not all our backers (certainly the majority) are kicking off? Do you really need that answered?

I wish you all the best and I genuinely hope your product comes to fruition but I suggest you are more transparent and honest next time round and keep your backers, the people that are funding you in the loop.

My concern is how you've obviously taken my comments personally, this is exactly why I wouldn't back you again. You've taken everything too personally, yes it's your product and I understand the personal nature of a startup but you've clearly forgotten how important the business and support aspect of all this is. This is probably why you didn't inform your backers because you've clearly not considered how big this all was and have overreached. This doesn't mean you can simply keep quiet for 10 months and hope it sorts itself out, we back you as a product and a company.

Anyway, best of luck.

and that' it. Again, I can no longer comment on the kickstarter page and they remove posts on facebook but I just wanted to give the continuous stream of current backers that are getting nothing abit of info.

Good luck.

[togepreee]

Lucky you got a refund. I still haven't received a cent back from them, and my messages go ignored.

[TashaTurner]

What a mess. I don't understand creators not keeping backers in the loop. I've seen backers offer to help raise additional funds, to help find all sorts of solutions to problems. Not telling your backers about your problems and blaming them for being mad is disingenuous.

I'm starting to think twice about backing any project where the creator not backed several successful projects which have made it through the completion process prior to launching their project so the creator has a clue what backers expect of them.